A Conversation with WRDSMTH
Street artist WRDSMTH discusses the first book he wrote and his life as a writer.
Edward Alvarez: I was thinking maybe before we start talking about your book, maybe you can explain how you started writing?
WRDSMTH: Started writing in general? Or started writing the book?
EA: When you first started writing, like maybe the authors that influenced you?
WS: Yea, so, I don't know, really early on I realized there was something to writing and me. I was a comic book kid and I was a big movie buff. And both of those- as I read comics, and as I saw movies, and kind of diving into the creation process of both of those, I was most fascinated with you know the characters and the dialogue and just the writing aspect of it. There was great things with art and comics, and there was great things in movie making of that process. But I just gravitated toward the writing, and kind of just wanted to tell stories of my own. And again, that started really early on. I think I went from wanting to be an astronaut, to a fireman, to a teacher oddly enough, and then writer. And I just never looked back, I just love the written word.
So as far as authors that influenced me- I mean, I go back to comic books, and there's an author, an artist named Frank Miller that was just a game changer for me. He did a lot of things with Batman and some other titles that I just thought were amazing. And then authors- I mean everything from Hemingway and Bukowski, to Chuck Palahniuk, Hornby, just everything…Along the way I just gravitated toward these stories of maybe even real people. Like Science Fiction and Fantasy and everything was great, but I just gravitated toward kind of real world, real, realistic stories of people, you know striving for whatever their goal was in life. And I think those authors kind of do it in fascinating and compelling ways.
EA: And Frank Miller, was he the one that made that animated movie that was kind of like a comic book?
WS: Frank Miller was, he had success in the comic world, a lot of success and then Hollywood came calling. There was you know adaptations, and one of them was Sin City that he worked with Robert Rodriguez and directed I believe, or was integral in that series. And there was other stuff, like there's 300 which is based on him. A lot of the Christopher Nolan Batman kind of angle, they say was influenced by Frank Miller's Batman. And just this gritty, realistic, you know almost detective like look at Batman. And so yea, so he's had a lot of success in that medium, and in other mediums like Hollywood.
EA: Right, yea I'm not too familiar with his work except that one movie that they made that was about his thing.
WS: Yea if you were a comic book kid you knew, you know what I mean? I think that's the point of it, it's just you know, I was an avid reader when I was young, but comic books were fun and superheroes were fun but even that, like I cited those authors that kind of take real life situations- even though Batman, or a superhero is a little far-fetched, it's not. Batman is the one superhero that's like a real person…and through circumstances, and the fact that he had a fortune he turned himself into a superhero. So I think even that says something to the kinds of stories that I gravitate toward.
EA: Okay, and if I understand things correctly you wrote the book before you started WRDSMTH?
WS: I did. That was actually a catalyst for WRDSMTH. I love writing, I've written in a lot of different mediums over the years. I used to work in advertising and then I quit my job and moved west. I was writing screenplays and short films, I worked in documentary TV. And while I was working in documentary TV it was sporadic work, and you know in between I would like working on projects like a script or something of that nature. And I had this idea that I was percolating- I'm a percolator of ideas. So they live in my brain you know for a long time, and I jot down notes and just I'm always thinking about these stories that whatever scratch my brain, and Holden was one of them. But I realized early on I didn't want to write it as a script, there's certain things in the script writing process that almost feel rushed to me. Like a lot of the first part of the book would be a montage in a script and that just kind of didn't sit well with me.
So I didn't know if I could write a book, and had never written a novel. But I knew if I ever dove into the story and the characters that were running around in my head, that were Holden, I would try to write it as a book. So I did that, I was on hiatus for a show for several months and just kind of dove into it. And because of the percolating over time it kind of poured out of me, at least the first draft did. And I was happy with what was on the page you know at the time. And long story short there was a lot of editing, a lot of polishing. As you know the secret to writing is writing and rewriting. So through that process, which was many, many months, I was doing what I loved; that was a very passionate project of mine. And I just realized I was spending so much time in front of the computer that I needed an active hobby. I needed something that got me away from the computer and, long story short, that led to the crazy idea to start doing street art. And yea that just completely took off after a couple months. But yea, it was right as Holden was getting published that I had started doing the WRDSMTH stuff.
EA: When you were working on the book, or maybe on the way to the book, did you ever feel like- you mentioned that you wanted to be all these things before you started writing. Did you ever feel like it was an impossible goal or an impossible task?
WS: ...A little bit...It was intimidating you know. I had never written- I wrote several scripts and short films, and I knew I could write. But writing a novel you know what I mean is a, I don't know, it's a daunting task...There's tons of writers that'll tell the story of staring at the blank page, or you know having the first two or three chapters. But again, percolating that idea, or the core of the idea- I had figured out a lot of the beginning, middle, and end of what the book could be. And especially the middle...everybody has a beginning and an end to a story no matter how they're writing it, but it's what happens in the middle that make you know really good and compelling stories and movies and anything. You have to be spending the bulk of the time on this adventure, and I think I figured out you know what could happen even before I sat down at the computer to start writing. So when I did, it was planned out where the pleasant surprise was. I was hitting all those story points but as far as the first draft is concerned, those chapters were happening pretty quickly.
And I did, I fell in love with my characters. I fell in love with that world, and I fell in love with the idea, or the conceit of that Hollywood story. So I was very pleasantly surprised when these characters started you know talking and interacting. And that's you know, a chapter by chapter kind of. And I didn't write it completely in order you know I mean I kind of jumped around a little bit. And kind of went with the flow but it did pleasantly surprise, you know keep moving along, and I started getting more and more almost obsessed with it. I'll say that word because one of the characters in the book is very obsessive. So I really put my head down and you know fell into this world. And I say this also led to WRDSMTH when I say I was doing what I was passionate about and what I love. I love to write, but I started writing three hours a day, five hours a day, six hours a day. And then as I got obsessed with it you know it was 8 to 10. I just really loved this story and really kind of fell into it. So by the end of it there was that realization of okay, I'm doing what I love, but I need something that's a little more active. Because I was sitting in front of the computer all day you know what I mean and again, enjoying it, but that was part of the process.
EA: Okay, yea, that's interesting. I was gonna ask, did you ever read the author Damon Runyon?
WS: I have not, that name doesn't even ring a bell.
EA: I think during the book, didn't you mention something about Runyon mountain or something?
WS: There's Runyon Canyon which is in Hollywood. But I don't know, the name Damon Runyon does not ring a bell.
EA: Oh okay, I was just kind of wondering because when I was reading the book I was like, well this isn't important, but I had never heard of Runyon Canyon so I was like oh maybe it's a reference to Damon Runyon but I guess that was kind of far off.
WS: I'll look it up but no that's just a place, there are a lot of references. I guess I'll say inside references you know what I mean, to just you know people, places and things you know in Hollywood. But that was not one of them, Runyon Canyon's actually a place you know that's right in the heart of Hollywood, it's pretty amazing that it's there. But it's, yea it's just a canyon.
EA: Well I guess like kind of going back to the, you said you like some of the realistic fiction, kind of detective stuff, and he wrote stuff like that incidentally. This was like the 1940s or something.
WS: Interesting.
EA: And I was wondering, is there anything autobiographical about your book?
WS: No. Everybody asked that question...I've had a lot of people think it's autobiographical, and I used to have a knee-jerk reaction to that like because I wrote you know a work of fiction. But then I kind of realized that it was a compliment in a way because it felt so real to people that they thought it was based in reality. But obviously the conceit that I came up with, with you know like analyzing Hollywood and what is actually at the core of the story, or the chase, or the adventure, is completely made up. It kind of turns Hollywood upside down in that you know it's usually a writer looking to get noticed. There's this writer that completely walked away from the industry and everybody's looking for him; so that right there you know what I mean is the seed of fiction. But as far as the characters- I mean there's definitely aspects of people that I encountered even back in advertising world of you know co-workers and horrible bosses and things of that nature, and in Hollywood. So as a writer I kind of pulled from little things but then you know made up aspects of the people.
Like one of the horrible bosses in Holden makes up swear words you know what I mean. Just kind of like creates these things that are you know whatever just offensive but not your typical swear words- that was completely made up. I never worked with anybody that did that. But there was definitely other aspects of that character that I encountered both in advertising and in Hollywood, because I did work in development when I first came to Hollywood. I wanted to see where my scripts would go if I wrote them and that whole process. So I did live in that world for a while and was fascinated by it, and I guess it really never left me because it became part of the seed for this story. But as far as autobiographical you know no, I've had people say, are you the main character? And I think there's aspects of me in every character in a sense in the book, but that's not me. And then I've had people you know in all walks of life say is that based on me? And it just makes me laugh you know what I mean, or it's a compliment. But it just makes me laugh because I don't think anything in the book is 100% autobiographical of anything that happened, or any character that you encounter.
EA: ...So one of the things that tripped me up when I was reading the book was like you said, I kept thinking that it was about, like for some reason like the start of the book made me think it was based on a true story for some reason...Obviously it's not a true story but for some reason I guess the characters seemed- I had some sort of I guess an emotional reaction to the characters. Like they, maybe they seemed, I don't know if human is the right word...I had this experience with another book that I was reading about a painter who's like really a stubborn character. And the more stubborn that he became throughout the book, the more real he felt to me. And so, maybe because when I got to the end of your book I was saying that, I guess I had mixed reactions about it. But I think it was more just that I was reacting to the characters because I, maybe I felt frustrated with some of the characters, and that kind of seemed to rub off on me I guess.
WS: Yea, yea you mentioned that you didn't like the ending. And maybe at some point in this conversation we can say okay, like following our spoilers you know if you haven't read the book you can stop here. But just in general the main character, I mean there was purpose in my writing, like you always want a character that misbehaves you know what I mean. Those are the most compelling characters in novels and films. So my character misbehaves, but I wanted to take it, especially in the first couple chapters, to the extreme. I like the fact that you know if you start reading something, or you start reading Holden, I like the fact that you don't know if you like this guy, or am I supposed to root for this guy and how far can you take it before you possibly start to redeem him. That's a main character, that's an arc that's usually in most stories. And if we talk about movies you can cite some examples, but the character usually misbehaves and then goes through a process, meets somebody...they start a journey.
I mean the book talks about this because it analyzes film making but then you ultimately try to redeem them. So I was going and having fun and having my character misbehave and then try to redeem him because the, actually at the beginning of the book when you meet him he's a completely different person. And I think that's, I don't know if that's what you were citing, but there's stuff that happens in the first chapter that people have come to me immediately and they go oh I didn't know that happened to you. And I'm like that didn't happen to me you know, I mean this isn't a spoiler it's in the first chapter of the book, like the character's father dies. People have come to me, I've gotten so many messages, and they go oh my god I'm so sorry about your dad. My dad's 90 years old and is living in Philadelphia you know what I mean.
So it's like it's not about me, but again, I take that as a compliment that I did things that just were so real or felt real- I'm not complimenting myself in any way, I'm just saying like if it feels real to me that's a good thing you know what I mean. And any reaction you have to characters that anybody writes, or that I write, I'm happy because you're actually reacting to them. It's characters that you don't care about that I think make for a boring book. So it's interesting that you had those reactions, and even throughout the book or toward the end of the book, but to me that's fascinating. Sometimes it's more fun to talk to people that didn't like the book or didn't like aspects of the book, than people that you know gush over it or just you know loved every moment.
EA: Yea, maybe it sounds stupid to say but for some reason I did believe the story about- I mean it sounds ridiculous, the part in the beginning about your dad dying for some reason I was like oh this is autobiographical, and this is almost like a sad story here, but it wasn't true.
WS: Yea I don't know where to go with that other than, again I get so many messages of people thinking that. So I mean maybe it's that you know I'm a white guy that lives in LA and and you know what I mean was embedded in Hollywood that, oh here's a white guy that moved to Hollywood and you know what I mean is encountering the industry that people think I'm writing about myself. But it was just more, I mean it was obviously, it's like I spent a lot of time in Hollywood. Like as a writer there is a rule in Hollywood you're not supposed to write about Hollywood. But those stories are usually oh I'm a writer trying to get noticed and or an actor trying to get cast. And I never wanted to write that story. So again going back to that conceit and turning the whole world upside down fascinated me, because I found a way to I think write about Hollywood or the industry without breaking those typical rules of nobody wants to read a story about a struggling writer trying to get found.
EA: How did you come up with the Holden character?
WS: The Holden character was I think in like structure based on two people, and two fascinating stories. One was Shane Black he was a screenwriter who kind of followed the arc a little bit of Holden in the book in that he was at the top of his game...He wrote...several screenplays and was getting paid tons of money to write and he disappeared from the industry because of substance abuse problems. So he literally kind of was off the map for a while...So Shane Black wrote Lethal Weapon and it just burst on the scene, it made a ton of money, and then he was subsequently paid a ton of money to write all these other franchise scripts and even continue the Lethal Weapon franchise. But he had a lot of substance abuse problems so he disappeared for a while, and then had a comeback later.
The other half of Holden came from, and this is where the name came from, was from J.D. Salinger. J.D. Salinger wrote Catcher in The Rye and just was you know taken aback at the notoriety and the fandom you know what I mean that he got. And he was kind of disgusted with the publishing world, so he walked away from the industry and there's that aspect of Holden in the book...You know where he lives, and you knew where Salinger lived, but he just wanted nothing, he was a recluse, he wanted nothing to do with...the fans or the publishing world. So those two things combined helped me write this character of Meyer Holden. Who again you know just kind of walked away from the industry, and he's playing a game with the industry of, there's a way to find him because he's so mad at the industry or the way things are. So that's how I built that character, sorry for the long-winded, and sorry for forgetting the name of that franchise, but it was loosely based on those two people kind of combined, or that started the drawing of the character.
EA: Yea I see, yea I think the J.D. Salinger thing makes sense. I do know that he got famous really quickly, but I didn't know the part about him resenting the fame.
WS: Yea there's actually a whole documentary about it that came out a couple years ago I think it's called "Finding Salinger" and it started with this one photographer that snapped a photo of him after I think like five or seven years of nobody finding him or seeing him or whatever. And he snapped this photo and yea it was a big story back then you know what I mean of you know Salinger just kind of disappearing from the limelight.
EA: I guess like the modern person that this could be attributed to is like Thomas Pynchon.
WS: Yea, that resonates but that was not part of the creation of my character you know what I mean, but I get that.
EA: And you were saying that the main character Sam Bateman, the name was, meant something?
WS: Yea there's a little thing, I mean writers do this all the time, and sometimes it works and sometimes it's like too much. But I did pepper in meanings behind some of the characters names in the book, and Sam Bateman was one. I think you made the comment that it's a common name. It's just an ordinary person going to you know extraordinary extremes you know what I mean in my story. So I don't mind the normal name, but Bateman just kind of, I like the sound of it because there's another character in the book that always refers to him as his last name. So it's just like, I like the you know Bateman kind of thing of you know just referring to him as that name rather than his first name. But it also was, he's searching for this writer that doesn't want to be found and ultimately he becomes "bait for the man" you know what I mean?
And so that was just embedded in there, there's another character whose name is Lackey who he thinks he's the greatest you know thing on the planet and just has an ego the size of a planet. However in the scheme of things he's just a lackey you know what I mean. And he doesn't even realize it, so that's little things that you just kind of like embed that I don't care if anybody knows, it's just how I created and chose their names as a writer...I mean Holden's name Holden- to tip the hat to Salinger...And I think that's the most obvious one in the book and in the title of the book. I wanted it to be an obvious homage to that character. There's also reference to Shane Black. I think there's a sentence in the book, oddly enough I couldn't think of the name of the movie, but I can remember the sentence in the book that's saying he had talent you know writing and talent writing movies. And it says "that's a lethal combination in this town." And that's a direct reference to Lethal Weapon you know what I mean just to kind of say- this is a person that I base the story on, or based elements.
EA: I see, yea. And you were saying before you wrote the book you were doing other types of writing? Screenplays and advertisement?
WS: Yea through the years, I mean I was working in advertising in Chicago before I moved to LA. as a copywriter. So that was you know just part of my journey. I was good at it and I guess getting promoted, but I just wasn't happy, so I quit my job because I wanted to write creatively. So I moved to Los Angeles and was writing scripts, short films. Like I said I started working in documentary TV, Food Network stuff, and Unsolved Mysteries, and When Weather Attacks kind of shows. And that paid the bills for a while but I was always in between those shows and those gigs, working on a screenplay or working on a lot of these ideas that are in the book you know what I mean, whether I actually wrote them as screenplays or tried to percolate them. But it did end up you know as I was writing the screenplays that the main character was reading, I used some of these ideas that I had through the years, and even fleshed some out or you know talked about them as they were fully formed movies versus ideas or screenplays. But to answer your question, yea I love to write, and I love writing in tons of different mediums. Even now as you know doing the street art, doing WRDSMTH- 95% of those words on the wall are things I write. And that's why WRDSMTH works because I continue to write on a daily basis and figure out ways to express myself.
EA: Did you feel like the writing that you were doing before for your other jobs, like it wasn't the type of writing that you wanted to do? Was that like simply put the feeling?
WS: Yea...definitely when I was in advertising, I mean it's, I thought that would be, when I first you know was getting involved in that industry I thought it would be a creative outlet and I thought it would be fun. There's a lot of chefs in the kitchen, and there's a lot of frustration with, in my opinion, you know great ideas getting watered down or changed that was frustrating for me. And then yea, I just, I started, again writing you know stories and scripts, and that was great in Hollywood. But then even documentary TV you know, it was fun to work in that world, and met a lot of great people, and talented people, and interesting stories, but it wasn't to your point the type of writing that I wanted to ultimately be doing. I wanted to do more creative stuff and that led to the book, and that also led to WRDSMTH.
EA: ...I wanted to ask you more about the writing process. Would you just sit down and start writing? Or would you- well for example, I'll give you an example, like Jack Kerouac had this idea about "spontaneous prose." He would say like "first thought, best thought." And he would just kind of write spontaneously, but you were saying more about rewriting. I just kind of wanted to ask more about like the process that you had for writing.
WS: Yea I started writing Holden early in the morning, like all my writing. I'm a morning person, I'm an early riser, and I love you know the whole routine of coffee. So that right there, I just started early, what I learned quickly is if I wrote for a couple hours and then left the computer...that's actually when I would walk or go to Runyon Canyon oddly enough and you know get some exercise...It was very healthy for the project because once I removed myself I was just thinking about things and connecting things that I think if I was sitting in front of the computer I wouldn't. There's that adage of your best ideas come when you're in the shower. It's not the shower, it's just removing yourself from you know being in it or staring at it. So on those walks and hikes I figured out a lot of things and then jumped back to the computer invigorated you know what I mean. Like exercise endorphins but also you know having thought through stuff and figured stuff out came back to the computer and wrote for several more hours through the day.
At first I was quitting you know around 5, six o'clock, and you know for sanity purposes just saying okay I'm going to relax and wind down. But as I started, like I said, getting in more and more in the routine and obsessed with the project, in the evenings after eating I would go back to the computer and do some polishing. Like I didn't want to write all day you know what I mean, but I found that I could go back and polish things up that I did in that day and still feel, you know because it was, it was just that I wanted the project to progress, but I hope that makes sense. So my process ultimately when I was getting up to you know eight, 10 hours a day writing, would be you know write in the morning for a couple hours, go on a hike or a long walk, come back, write for a couple more, break, and then come back and polish. And I did that for a long, several months...But it was very fulfilling, and it was moving the project along at a pretty rapid rate as far as getting the first draft done.
EA: And I guess since we're on the topic, do you think a person writes better after having a drink, having a beer?
WS: I don't think so. That's the thing like early on, like I know there's this romantic notion of writing at night and writing with wine and whiskey and just kind of the creative process. That never worked for me in the sense that, even at night if I was rolling along I ultimately hit a wall. And I hated that because if I was rolling I didn't want to get tired. And so I started, I flipped it really early on in my life where like even in college and in my 20s I was wanting to get up early and start creative things, just start the day or the creative day. So night never worked for me and that's what I'm saying like even dinner time, you know I mean like I would have a drink or two but then I didn't want to go back to writing.
But I found I could kind of you know polish or move things around and do clerical work on the book without you know trying to be creative under the influence, or in the evening when I was getting tired and things of that nature. I know it works for some people and they embrace it. And that's the thing I say however you're able to create, or write, or whatever you're doing, like embrace it you know what I mean. But for me it's early morning and I'm most creative with coffee. And I don't know, there's things that, you know like after a drink or two, not that they're all nonsensical but sometimes I would just you know try to figure out what I was actually thinking versus having that clarity you know what I mean, and that's how I work.
EA: Yea, I guess like the obvious reference would be like Hunter S. Thompson and he had this whole long list of things that he would take before he would start writing...I guess it's easy to assume that maybe after a couple drinks you'll open up some ideas and you'll start writing better, but ironically it doesn't really work that well sometimes.
WS: Yea, yea for me I think substances you know what I mean whether it's drink or even cannabis, like ideas can come...and as long as you're able to you know like articulate them, or document them, or you know remember them that's great. Like, again, I can be very creative under the influence but not in writing. Writing to me is very precise and technical. So I can come up with ideas but I'll save it for the morning to actually flesh it out and write it. Does that make sense? So I think that's whatever, some people are able to do everything you know what I mean but I'm just not that person. But I'm not not creative you know I mean under the influence I'm just not you know technically gonna try to accomplish writing a chapter you know what I mean after having a couple drinks.
EA: Yea it reminds me of like stuff that David Lynch says, that if you forget an idea it's like the worst thing that could ever happen.
WS: 100% we all have those like waking up in the middle of the night and oh my god that was brilliant, and even maybe jotting it down. And then you see it in the morning and you're like you have no idea what it means. So yea it is this like whatever, you're grasping at stuff that's already vaporized you know. I mean, and it's so frustrating, it's such a frustrating feeling and I think that's why I gravitate toward you know the clarity aspect of it, as far as actually putting in the time.
EA: Well I guess I'll have you react to a quote. Sometimes I have this in the interviews and I guess here's one about books. It's from Carlyle it says, "In books lies the soul of the whole past time."
WS: ...That's interesting. Yea, I think it's intriguing, I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but why do you find that intriguing?
EA: Well I guess the idea is that books are maybe like voices from the past.
WS: ...I don't know, I'm trying to think if that's a sweeping statement, like everything written is analyzing things, you know what I mean and things that have you know happened or could happen you know. I mean so yea I think it's always a reflection of, I don't know it's obviously a reflection of someone's you know thought and vision.
EA: And also…on the topic of books, and I guess this relates a little bit to your book, do you think libraries are going out of style?
WS: I think so. I hate to say I think reading you know what I mean in the sense that we used to, from books to magazines is going out of style, and you know technology is at the heart of that. Where we're digesting things in smaller and smaller increments...So I don't know, I mean there's something like I think I even made a statement that time it's just like even if reading is a thing of the past I'm still going to write. But I mean there's, it's not completely gone, but it's just not what it used to be, it's not. It's just, it's a shame that, I don't know if technology can be a great thing and technology can be obviously you know just something that changes us like it has over the last you know 20 some years, 30 some years. So libraries going out of style, I mean I guess...It obviously was more popular or something that, you know now you can just get information or even books without even leaving your home, so it's kind of a shame because they used to be a destination. And destination leads toward interaction, and you think like, people think like oh I'm interacting you know through my phone or on the Internet and stuff but it's a totally different beast.
EA: Do you know if your book is in any libraries?
WS: When it first got published, it was published at two different times- it was originally published under my name Phil Brody, and that was you know back in 2013. And then 2018 me and the publisher revisited publishing it under WRDSMTH because you know the audience that I had. So it had two lives. I know back in the, originally when it was Phil Brody had entered a couple libraries. I forget where they were. But it was put out there for them through the publisher. And a couple of them you know picked it up and took it, but I don't remember the specifics of where they were. But it was fun, it was thrilling…that that was happening you know what I mean.
EA: Yea and I'm wondering, have you ever lost a book that you wish you would have kept?
WS: Yea, I think there's two things: like there's a couple books that yea I lost through the years, and then there's also the loaning of books to people, which I love to do. But then you know when you realize wait where's that book and you can't even remember who you loaned it to, it's very frustrating you know what I mean. And I've re-purchased some books through the years but yea there's a couple books that I do miss from my collection and of course, yea.
EA: So we're talking about writing and, what do you think about criticism? I was wondering like how do you respond to criticism?
WS: I have a thick skin you know, I mean I believe in my writing, I love this book, it's my first born, and I always say like, I miss this world and these characters you know what I mean. So I love talking to people about the book and again, I think I said it earlier, it's just like I've had more conversations with people, aspects that they didn't like about the book, or things that happened, than the people that just you know loved the entire ride and are favorable. So I think criticism is real and criticism is healthy, and criticism can also even be fun you know what I mean. You know I'll discuss the book or I'll discuss the ideas in the book, or the characters in the book, you know and I don't, I won't even say like I'll defend them, because anybody can have their opinion about anything. But as far as you know criticism, I mean there's a difference between like criticism and hate you know what I mean. Like some people are just looking to you know whatever crap on something because that's who they are and that's, you got to you know decipher between the two. But I love having conversations about all creative aspects you know, anything I've done, whether it was screenplays, or this book, or even WRDSMTH stuff. So yea I'm fine with it, and I think it's what makes the world go around. It's just like you can't shy away from people's opinions. I think if you do, I don't know, it's unhealthy.
EA: There's the whole idea that after you make something and you put it out...it becomes something to other people, like it's no longer yours necessarily. It has a whole other meaning to other people.
WS: 100%
EA: I think it's, well I mean there's a lot to say about this, you know there could also be something about like maybe fear of failure that could make people respond a certain way to criticism. But I guess yea like everybody has their own opinion, but it doesn't always have to be a negative thing...The other thing I wanted to ask you was, have you ever encountered a book that you felt was too difficult to understand?
WS: I don't know, I've...tried to dive into Infinite Jest a couple times and I know people you know praise the brilliance but it's just, it's not, dense is the wrong word, but it's just it's an undertaking you know what I mean. So there's always an intimidation there, but as far as understanding- I can't, I don't know, I can't think of any. You know there's definitely books that weren't my cup of tea. I mean, because maybe they were just too heavy or dense, I'll use that word again, but I don't know that there's anything that is kind of like, I don't even, I don't understand where this is coming from, and I think that's what you're asking.
EA: Well I guess like yea that's one aspect, and then another one is like you know maybe something is too technical. But I think I know what you're talking about with Infinite Jest, there were actually some parts of that book where I was just like, almost just like why include this…And I kind of ran into that with another book that I was reading recently where it was just like a very kind of, it felt like such like a private thought from the author and I was just like why add this in you know, it's a little too much...I guess what I'm trying to say is like, sometimes reading can be hard, and there's some books that are just like especially challenging. I mean I guess Infinite Jest is one example. I guess another one would be like, maybe like a science book or something like that.
WS: Yea, I heard some people...I wrote Holden in the first person and the main character is very less is more, terse, and you know kind of it's just his nature that he kind of gets to the point or gets you know to the whatever, into the process you know as succinctly as possible. So there's a cadence to Holden that I've heard some people say oh I found that the way he talks...I found it annoying you know kind of thing. And then I've talked to some people, or heard some people say oh at first I was taken back by it but then as you kind of get into it, you get into the cadence of how he thinks and speaks. So I don't know, I think that's fun. I like unique you know what I mean, and I definitely tried to create a voice for that character that was unique. So I don't know, it's again, people's reactions can be across the board. But you have to respect their reactions and opinions.
EA: Right, and also I was reminded kind of about Kurt Vonnegut because there was some exchanges with the characters, like the script team or whatever and with the insults and then the boss guy would say something crazy and then the other guy would say "Sir?" You know sir question mark, and then that happened in the, I think Cat's Cradle, I was reading from Kurt Vonnegut. And it was just like this one character is kind of eccentric and then the other guy is like sir?...Was there an inspiration for that?
WS: It's definitely a author I like and respect, but if it was anything it was just through the years kind of like you know taking voices like that and it you know just kind of it's embedded in me you know what I mean. It wasn't any kind of like oh I'm going to do it like that, or you know tip my hat to it, or pay homage to it. I think that just came in kind of like the culmination and formation of authors that I liked and kind of you know building my voice or my approach to writing. Like a big part of it was that less is more aspect of it, and I think that goes back to my roots in advertising. That's actually like the essence of WRDSMTH is just coming up with ideas you know whether they're motivational, inspirational, or romantic, and boiling it down to the you know fewest, most powerful words, and hope those words resonate with people.
So then if I go to long form writing I'm just a big fan of that, and it's in there in screenwriting too. They say you know when you write a script you're not supposed to be writing the movie, you're writing the skeleton of the movie that then you know the director's making it his vision, and the actors are making it you know their vision for the characters and that adds the meat or the color to that skeleton. So I think there is something in me as a writer just in that less is more. So when I was writing this book that kind of you know lent itself into like I said the cadence and the way people talk and interact, and getting to the heart of scenes quickly. People have said the book is written in a way that, I think it was around the time we talked about this that I realize oh people are reading less and less.
So I wanted to write this book that had these you know succinct, or I don't want to say short, but you know what I mean not long chapters. And they all kind of ended on a hook or cliffhanger kind of thing, to make you turn the page. That's also screenwriting, like every scene you know kind of like ends in something that propels it to the next scene. So that's what I was doing in writing a book about Hollywood, or trying to do, is write these you know chapters that people turn the pages quickly. And what I'm getting at is one of the couple compliments that I got, messages from people, it was along the lines of I'm so mad at you because I was reading last night and I wanted to stop but because this happened in the book I read another chapter and then another chapter, and I went to bed two hours later than I wanted to. That's a huge compliment for a writer. So I don't know...Writing to me is that you know less is more and that kind of hooking the reader and making them turn those pages no matter what you're writing.
EA: That's always a good quality and it reminds me that in Cat's Cradle there were the most ridiculously short chapters, like I think there was a chapter in that book that was like half a page long.
WS: Yea yea, taking it to the extreme.
EA: ...The other thing I was going to say was, do you think it makes sense for someone to want to be a writer these days?
WS: Yea I mean I'd like to think the world always needs writers, always needs voices in all walks of life. I mean there's things going on in the world, with AI and all that stuff that's scary but I like to think it's never going to replace you know the human voice or the human you know whatever ideation process. So I don't know, I think it's sad if writing becomes a, what am I trying to say, like a trade of the past kind of thing, or just you know a job of the past, that would be terrible. But is it a great time for writers, you know no, but you know there were other times in our history you know what I mean that maybe wasn't great or wasn't lucrative. But I hope it cycles through another thing where there's some platforms or opportunity for writers to do what they do.
EA: Yea, I think that explains it. And there was another question that I had earlier but I think I forgot what it was. Well do you think you're gonna write another book?
WS: I definitely have ideas that I've been percolating. Like I miss long form writing but WRDSMTH keeps me busy and I always, I've been saying for a couple years I hope I find the balance at some point because I have a couple stories that I'd like to tell. But that's a good problem to have you know what I mean, busy's good. And WRDSMTH like I said, writing you know on a daily basis it flexes that muscle that needs to be, like I don't know it's, I miss long form writing, I want to get back to it. But again when is the question. But I do, again have some ideas that I through the years have been percolating and they’re still afloat you know what I mean. Sometimes you start to think about an idea and kind of dive into the story- beginning, middle and end, and you find the holes in it and then they're like oh that's not going to work, that's not a viable idea. These ideas that I have are still floating so that makes me happy and excited and I continue to percolate and hopefully percolate similar to Holden that once I do sit down you know in front of the computer that they flow out of me at a good rate. But I don't know, to answer your question I hope to find that balance at some point and do both. But I'd be surprised if I don't, but I just don't know when that's going to happen because I've been thinking about exactly that for the last you know couple years.
EA: But you did end up making like a coffee table book about your art?
WS: I'm working on the coffee table book and yea that's something, after 10 years I wanted to do a book just encapsulating that and talking about the journey that was WRDSMTH. So it's going through a lot of photography and then you know creating the book. But then I also want to tell a lot of stories which will you know be writing and include writing in that book but that's a project that I'm continuing to work on and have moved it. It was on the back burners in a way you know what I mean but I moved it you know to the front and I'm trying to spend as much time with it to get it to the point of you know first draft and then editing it and polishing it and then hopefully you know getting it out there.
EA: I see well it sounds like it'll probably come together.
WS: Yea I mean at first I thought oh it'd be great if it came out you know close to the 10 year anniversary. And I just realized that was unrealistic and it's going to celebrate the first 10 years but that can come out you know at any time. So you know I don't know how it'll flow, but maybe late this year or sometime next year I'm hoping that does see the light of day.
EA: Yea well I think maybe we've covered everything. I was going to go into more some last thoughts about your book but maybe I've already kind of.
WS: Yea it's up to you. I think this has been a good conversation you know kind of diving into aspects that I haven't talked about, about the book and that's always fun to do after all this time. But yea it's up to you, you know what I mean, as far as the questions you had or what you wanted to cover.
EA: I think maybe the final thing is just that it's hard to write a book.
WS: Yea it is, it is, trust me, I started thinking like what am I doing, I don't know if I can do this. And I will say, and this is amazing to say because of what I just said about finding the balance of time, but it was one of the favorite things that I've done. And it was such a like a maddening task, and an obsessive task, but it was so fulfilling once it started coming together. And then once people started reading it and reacting to it, it was so thrilling that I can't believe I haven't done it again. Like I said you know amazing problem to have of finding that balance of time, but it is a crazy task to think I'm going to write this book of any size, so yea. But it's what writers do, they're crazy.
EA: I almost wonder if, sometimes I almost think it's maybe just like a mindset that you have to get into in order to finish writing the book. Okay the last thing I was going to say was, I should have mentioned this earlier but I totally forgot was that- you know like Joseph Campbell the philosopher? He wrote Hero with a Thousand Faces and there's this whole idea that stories repeat over time, the same story repeats throughout history. And so in that sense it would seem easy enough to write something, but it's still, I think it's still quite difficult to actually write things. And so I guess that's my final thought.
WS: That's good, I agree with you. The process is tough for people and that's, I think a lot of people shy away from it because of how daunting it is, but I think once you dive in you know any writer is going to say what I said that it's just it's very fulfilling...It's a great thing to actually you know finish or get your vision out on the page no matter what the reaction is. It's such an accomplishment that anybody should be proud.
EA: That's well said. Well thanks for taking the time to talk to me about your book.
WS: 100% thanks for reading it.